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What is the fate of Rome had Alexander turned west earlier?
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agrippa



Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 15
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:21 pm    Post subject: What is the fate of Rome had Alexander turned west earlier? Reply with quote

Probably the most historic event in Ancient times was the untimely death of Alexander at the age of 33/34. His goal of conquering Rome would have had unimmagitive consequencies.
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Tino



Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 292
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's an interesting historic "what if" question.
Especially if Alexander had conguered europe all the way to the Atlantic ocean.
Would he too fight the Carthaginians?
I believe he was not only a great military commander but would have made a very wise emperor, and we would have seen his empire last much longer.
He was the first to promote racial equality, yet here we are, over 2000 years later, Greeks and Slavs fighting over the name of Macedonia... Ironic and sad all at the same time...

Makes you think. Confused

"I do not separate people, as do the narrow-minded, into Greeks and barbarians. I am not interested in the origin or race of citizens. I only distinguish them on the basis of their virtue. For me each good foreigner is a Greek and each bad Greek is worse than a barbarian. "

- Alexander the Great.

The man was wise beyong his years.
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Sufi



Joined: 07 Nov 2003
Posts: 81

PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tino wrote:
That's an interesting historic "what if" question.
Especially if Alexander had conguered europe all the way to the Atlantic ocean.
Would he too fight the Carthaginians?
I believe he was not only a great military commander but would have made a very wise emperor, and we would have seen his empire last much longer.
He was the first to promote racial equality, yet here we are, over 2000 years later, Greeks and Slavs fighting over the name of Macedonia... Ironic and sad all at the same time...

Makes you think. Confused

"I do not separate people, as do the narrow-minded, into Greeks and barbarians. I am not interested in the origin or race of citizens. I only distinguish them on the basis of their virtue. For me each good foreigner is a Greek and each bad Greek is worse than a barbarian. "

- Alexander the Great.

The man was wise beyong his years.


I'd like to know what would've happened if he'd met the Chinese. That would've been action-packed I'm sure. And if his men had problems with the Persians, more so with the Chinese I think LOL

Where did that quote come from? What source and who translated? It's a good quote and I've not run across it in my studies.
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Sufi



Joined: 07 Nov 2003
Posts: 81

PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 12:25 am    Post subject: quote... Reply with quote

Also, it's interesting to note that "barbarian" back then did mean "foreigner."
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Tino



Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 292
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the full quote, Alexander solemnly declared this in Opis (location where Alexander proclaimed an end to his conquests):

I'm not exactly sure as to which of his scribes made record of the following though...

"I wish all of you, now that the wars are coming to an end, to live happily, in peace. All mortals from now on will live like one people, united, and peacefully working towards a common prosperity. You should regard the whole world as your own country with common laws, a country where the best and the brightest rule, regardless of race.
I do not separate people, as do the narrow-minded, into Greeks and barbarians. I am not interested in the origin or race of citizens. I only distinguish them on the basis of their virtue. For me each good foreigner is a Greek and each bad Greek is worse than a barbarian. If ever differences arose, never resort to arms, but resolve them peacefully. If need be, I will serve as your arbitrator. Do not consider God (possibly meaning himself) as a dictatorial Ruler, but as Father of all, so that your conduct would resemble the cohabitation of siblings within one family. On my part, I consider all of you equal, white or dark, and I would like you not to be only plain subjects of my Commonwealth, but all shareholders, all partners. To the extent it is in my power, I shall try to accomplish all that I promise. Keep the oath we are taking
with the libation tonight like a Contract of Love"
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Sufi



Joined: 07 Nov 2003
Posts: 81

PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry to press, but i really want to know--

what *source* did you get that from? a papyrus? a translation by Arrian? Plutarch? that's what i wanted to know. thanks! Smile
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Tino



Joined: 28 Oct 2003
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Location: Canada

PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will see if I can find the original and author for you.
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Sufi



Joined: 07 Nov 2003
Posts: 81

PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tino wrote:
I will see if I can find the original and author for you.


you rock. thanks much! Smile
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Tino



Joined: 28 Oct 2003
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Location: Canada

PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Sufi:

I've managed to find my old university paper in which I referenced the quote from.
The quote (or similar translation of) can be find in the Qu'ran (unfortunately I did not reference the exact passage, and lost marks for it LOL)
I did some more searching and I believe the speech can also be found in the sixth volume of Plutarch's "Moralia".

I also understand that British historian and author W.W.Tarn in his "Alexander the Great" did much to popularize this speech and the image of Alexander as a believer in the Unity of Mankind, but he overemphasizes the good traits of Alexander and ignores some of his negative traits on occassion.
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Sufi



Joined: 07 Nov 2003
Posts: 81

PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tino wrote:
Hi Sufi:

I've managed to find my old university paper in which I referenced the quote from.
The quote (or similar translation of) can be find in the Qu'ran (unfortunately I did not reference the exact passage, and lost marks for it LOL)
I did some more searching and I believe the speech can also be found in the sixth volume of Plutarch's "Moralia".

I also understand that British historian and author W.W.Tarn in his "Alexander the Great" did much to popularize this speech and the image of Alexander as a believer in the Unity of Mankind, but he overemphasizes the good traits of Alexander and ignores some of his negative traits on occassion.


that's fantastic, Tino, many thanks!

And yeah, I think claiming Alexander was the proto-Jesus is a bit far of a reach. Certainly he wasn't AS prejudice as some of his contemporaries might have been, but I doubt he was quite the "We are the world" that some historians want to make him.
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Tino



Joined: 28 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sufi:

My pleasure.

I agree, Alexander was a indeed a great man, but not perfect! Wink
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Evan



Joined: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 4
Location: Athens Greece

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's say that Alexander was a great fan of the motto: "Backstab your best friend before he backstabs you" so he was no Jesus at all believe me... Wink Anyway his immense empire called for drastic measures so as to keep himself on top of things...
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strykar



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is an old sci-fi book called "A Choice of Destinies" by Melissa Scott, which gives an alternate history if Alexander had indeed turned west against the Romans.
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marsian



Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 15
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sufi wrote:
Tino wrote:
That's an interesting historic "what if" question.
Especially if Alexander had conguered europe all the way to the Atlantic ocean.
Would he too fight the Carthaginians?
I believe he was not only a great military commander but would have made a very wise emperor, and we would have seen his empire last much longer.
He was the first to promote racial equality, yet here we are, over 2000 years later, Greeks and Slavs fighting over the name of Macedonia... Ironic and sad all at the same time...

Makes you think. Confused

"I do not separate people, as do the narrow-minded, into Greeks and barbarians. I am not interested in the origin or race of citizens. I only distinguish them on the basis of their virtue. For me each good foreigner is a Greek and each bad Greek is worse than a barbarian. "

- Alexander the Great.

The man was wise beyong his years.


I'd like to know what would've happened if he'd met the Chinese. That would've been action-packed I'm sure. And if his men had problems with the Persians, more so with the Chinese I think LOL

Where did that quote come from? What source and who translated? It's a good quote and I've not run across it in my studies.



Greetings from Hong Kong, Tino Hail!!!

That was a marvellous quotation, I guess that's what makes Alexander such a respectable character.

Hi Sufi,

I agree with your "Action Packed" point Very Happy

Though, during that period (472 - 211 BC) it was known as the Warring State Period in ***. Where the seven state in *** were engage in battle against each other to try to gain control of the throne (lots of action, strategy, great character existed during that period, such as the famous Zhuge Liang, CaoCao, LiuBei etc). If you are interested please go to www.threekingdoms.com they definitely did a good job in the translating job from the Chinese version of "Romance of the Three Kingdom" which is a historical fiction based in that period.

The reason why I brought up that point is because if Alexander (356 - 322BC) were to meet the Chinese in his life time, the Chinese would've been busy with Civil war, so I can't help thinking after reading your point, "What if the Chinese did meet Alexander? would the Chinese actually unite to fight off Alexander? or would they simply just continue on their civil war? Very Happy

It's a good question for me to ponder on, thanks! haha...ciao! Very Happy
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marsian



Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 15
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

magika wrote:
[quote="marsianI agree with your "Action Packed" point Very Happy
So can I... Very Happy But the first thing that comes to my mind is Chaki Chan doing his thing in front of a STUNNED ( Shocked ) and STILL Alexander the Great.... HA HA HA HA HA!

...HA HA HA HA HA HA! HI HI HI HI HI![/quote]


haha...I wonder what Alexander would say to his friends after watching jackie perform. Laughing
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