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What an awful movie
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RC



Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 23
Location: bogota, colombia

PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Forgive my English)
Did you realize that one of the most respected living historians of Alexander The Great, Robin Lane Fox was in close collaboration with Oliver Stone even before the movie were filmed, and during all the shooting and post production process? That would be, at least, a bit of sign of the seriousness and depth and implications of the film as a historical work of fiction, without mention that Stone spend about 15 years developing the script, and about his whole life studying the life of Alexander. If you re-read some of the most respected studies of Alexander, fiction or not (Roger Caratini, Claude Mosse, Mary Renault among others) you may perceive the exquisite inflections and treatment of some of the most delicate issues, such as the marriage with Roxana, the assassination of Cleitus, Parmenion, the relationship with Hephaistion, Olympia, Philip, Aristotle etc. I mean by contrasting all this body of work.

You say that the film shows the Macedonian as the “civilized”: re-watch the sequence of Macedonians entering in Babylon and the palace, the comments of Alexander, the way they look the majestic splendor of the palace and say it again. They really look like peasants looking a miracle. And by the way, one of the most important things that we see is the process of respect and absorption of the “Barbarian” cultures by Alexander, while his generals remain the same, nationalistic Macedonians. The terrible conflict with them by marrying a barbarian when he never took a Macedonian or even Persian bride.

The class system in Persia were so “pyramidal”, so rigid in the place that each person had to fit in that reminds the Aztecs, Egyptians, but most of all, the station of live of the Indians, each one of them almost like ants, with a “genetic” of “soldier”, “worker”, “king”, it was actually a sort of birth determinism. The greek, whether if we like it or not, “flexibilized” considerably that sense of determinism, giving freedom to a slave or a peasant to be a worker, soldier, etc and if you look that in the conext of the ancient era, it is a revolution. (And by that reason Darius couldn’t even move from his golden chariot in the battle of Gaugamela, because he was literally a god for the Persians, like Ra, and that rigid sense in military strategy and planning help them to lose. We have again the flexibility of the “sailors and merchant Greeks” vs. the hieratic sense of the Persians.

You are putting the same Barbarian-civilized dynamics such as the Spanish and Aztecs one. And the same “Golden Age ended by barbarian invaders”. By that I mean that if we say that the Spanish were the barbarian or even the civilized, and the Indians the innocent, the naive or pure, or even worst the barbarians (despite the human sacrifices), we are again going on clichés, because they were all refined and brutal, wonderful and terrible, civilized and barbarians, even savages in many ways and the destruction that took place were their guilty, all of them gave him birth.

You simply can’t talk about “basic lessons in history” because the film is not simple or basic, despite the appearance of “huge blockbuster Hollywood epic”. This is a project of fiction with a historical base in the very level of Mary Renault or Yourcenar’s works.

One last thing. Take the DVD if you didn’t and listen the comments of both Robin L. Fox and Stone, and think about all that.

* With all due respect for this very nice group, I think this kind of discussions are healthy for all of us, whether if we love or hate the movie, and the comment of “Tiamasp” should be respected because it’s serious, it is supported on arguments, is not the kind of “I Didn’t like the hair of Farrell or the accent of Angelina Jolie” kind of dumb stupid comments that infected the atmosphere around the film. Is nice that people gather to celebrate this unparallel film, but discussion always should have room.

And that was why I took all this bother. Just joking.

There are too many things to talk about and think about this, but I will leave it there, and I would like to come on charge again.
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birdiemom94



Joined: 06 Jul 2004
Posts: 195

PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi RC and welcome to the board. Don't worry about your English, it is fine.

I don't think the major problem was with what Tiamasp said (at least on this end). I think it was more of a problem with the tone of the post. I thought the post resorted to name calling and was condescending. Personally, I don't think it needed to be that way.

As far as the film being fiction, I think thats true, I don't dispute that. We all are aware of Robin Lane Fox consulting on the film. Myself, I have not listened to the commentary yet (as many times as I have seen the film), but one day I am going to site down and do that. I hear it is fantastic!

Thanks for posting.

Dara Smile
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birdiemom94



Joined: 06 Jul 2004
Posts: 195

PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to clarify my thoughts on this statement:

"I don't think the major problem was with what Tiamasp said (at least on this end)"

I am taking about the history of ATG that mentioned in the post.

Dara Smile
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Nell



Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that Tiamasp's post should be respected, but that's what we've done. We just gave our opinions, just as frankly as Tiamasp did - if you start a discussion in the tone Tiamasp did, I think you can expect at least fiery or annoyed comments. Most people don't enjoy being talked down on, wether what's being said is true or not. I think that was more the issue Smile
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RC



Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 23
Location: bogota, colombia

PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the welcoming and the response. ¡Now I would like to know what Tiamasp thinks! Yes I agree with you about the tone of Tiamasp. I think is completely censorable in that sense and that’s precisely my point, his manners demonstrate he’s not aware the kind of work that Alexander represents. I tried to focus in the declarations he made. Because I heard and red so many critics – ¡of the CRITICS I mean, the experts and wise mediators! - Around here and the international press being completely missed with the film precisely because they felt absolutely secure in his wisdom. I was so frustrated with it. And I just want it to point that, they’re fooling around with the wrong film.

Didn’t you heard the audio comments? Oh, that’s a whole feast; I really miss it when DVDs doesn’t come whit it. Specially with Stone’s films. And here we have as I said both Stone and Fox. I always think is an extra gift. But I most say that I only have the original cut, I’ve been waiting the moment to buy the second one. I have to digest better the first one. I don’t want to waste this film. And you people blew me away with the news of the 3 hours 45 minutes cut. I read the interview, simply wonderful.

Thanks to you Dara.
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RC



Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 23
Location: bogota, colombia

PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just wanted to say hello to Nell to and the whole group, as well as Dara, thanks for the answer; I agree with you people honestly, I realize that my note was a little confusing in that sense, because I wanted to point out these things to Tiamasp. I assure you Nell that I will not start an unpleasant discussion, just debate, and if Tiamasp insists in his attitude, let them rot.
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Nell



Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's OK we understand RC Smile Looks like Tiamasp has no smart answers left anyway Wink
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Cynisca



Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 605
Location: Living in Yorkshire UK - ê tan ê epi tas

PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,
well, I don't think I need to add much either.....except to repeat that Alexander is the all time best movie of it's genre ever made.
In relation to accuracy and authenticity, Oliver has done a marvellous job.....what deviations have been made are a mixture of Oliver's own personal viewpoint about 'his' Alexander, Robin Lane Fox's and the Hollywood film industries 'standards' He explained about having to compress known incidents, such as Stateira addressing Hephaestion and Porus requesting he be treated like a king, into one for the film.
We do not know the real truth about Alexander, only what can be known from archaeological finds, art and writings and some who may have memories of a past existance ...
Most comtemporary records from Alexander's period seem to have strangely vanished, like his body and what is written years after the events can be embelished by the authors. We have the Babylonian cuneiform tablets currently being deciphered, but these give a Persian viewpoint of Alexander.
All we can really agree on is that he achieved things that nobody else had, had a charismatic, magnetic and attractive persona and was simply ALEXANDER THE GREAT.....!
Hmmh, 'not add much' did I say.... Embarassed
regards
Cynisca
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joanna



Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 1270
Location: Greece/USA/Italy/UK/

PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nell wrote:
It's OK we understand RC Smile Looks like Tiamasp has no smart answers left anyway Wink




Helloooo....Tiamasp? Where are you?
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