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Was really Alexander homosexual?
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dynamo



Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Posts: 289
Location: GB

PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

interesting.................

would you include animals in Try(Tri)- Sexual??

I don't think that he was like that (<deleted by admin>), and I don't really think he was the most adventrurous gay guy around, didn't he only sleep with H??
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Chopin



Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 31
Location: Washington, DC, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:58 am    Post subject: Gay animals & Alexander Reply with quote

Yes, there are MANY gay animals. See the book "Biological Exuberance." It is a huge catalog of evidence of homosexual behavior exisiting amongst many species.

Several zoos have even had special exhibits on gay animals. Some zoos have some rather famous gay animals in them, in fact, like the gay storks in Germany who co-fathered some abandoned baby storks or something like that.

In many pre-Christian cultures, while they didn't have anything against same sex love and didn't have the word "homosexual" or "bisexual", there was still some understanding of the fact that some guys prefered men, and some guys prefered women. Same for women, of course. And the guys who preferred men were often highly regarded as having a special spiritual powers (like those American Indians who called *** "Two Spirit People" or the West Africans who calls *** "Gate-keepers") which were vital to their community survival. I wonder if perhaps Alexander was regarded in this fashion?
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murkywater



Joined: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

does it really matter if someone is homosexual or bisexual? personally, i believe that if you love someone, of any sex, you obviously should be allowed to. im heterosexual, but still believe that everyone should have a choice who to love. Im saying this because in the frist pages there was a lot of talk that seemed to be degrading homosexuals. god, let people love who they want.
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dynamo



Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Posts: 289
Location: GB

PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alexander was ***, he loved both men and women. We've got that far in what...........4? 5? pages???? We've also come to the conclusion that animals can be gay.

but hey, this forum is enlightening isn't it??
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Alexia



Joined: 29 Jan 2004
Posts: 80
Location: Los Angeles, CA

PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dynamo wrote:
Alexander was ***, he loved both men and women. We've got that far in what...........4? 5? pages???? We've also come to the conclusion that animals can be gay.

but hey, this forum is enlightening isn't it??


I don't know about that LOVE part. Just because he **** some women and married a few along the way, doesn't mean he loved any of them. The only love he exhibited was his love for Hepaestion.
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Awakener



Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi my name is Alexandros and I am from Thessaloniki (Macedonia). First I wan to apologize for my English, I’m not that good at writing but I am very good in Greek or even better Hellinik philosophy and I must say that what Tartarus said unfortunately is true <<How can you judge as you don’t even speak Ancient Hellenic, Alexander's language and r cant even read any ancient epigraph?>> And let me explain why. Can any body tell me what the English word for Έρωτας is and what it means? Can any body tell me what the English word for Φιλότιμο is and what it means? Also according to the topic I want to ask if anybody knows the English word for Παιδεραστης? Ill be waiting for reply! And when Ill give you the correct answer I m sure you still want have the slightest clue of what I am talking about! I don’t want to be hostile or offensive in any way and if what I said has offended you I apologize but What I say is what I believe and I want to prove by using this arguments. Eventually if you practice philosophy you will understand what I am taking about and really understand a lot abut Alexander the Grate and even for you r self’s also.
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Megas Alexandros



Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 11
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:00 am    Post subject: Ancient Greek Reply with quote

Yeah its true what you say, Ancient Greek is very difficult to learn! I myself am a fluent speaker of both Greek and English - 1st language being English and 2nd being Modern Greek - and have studied Modern as well as Ancient Greek at university level. Ancient Greek is just so much more demanding than Modern Greek or koine. Razz
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dynamo



Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Posts: 289
Location: GB

PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't know about that LOVE part. Just because he **** some women and married a few along the way, doesn't mean he loved any of them. The only love he exhibited was his love for Hepaestion.


Roxane????????
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Jenna Corinth



Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How did he demonstrate his love for Roxane? All he did was marry her in order to forge alliance with the Sogdian's and sire an heir.

He might have fancied her a bit but they didn't even speak the same language! Then after they were married he was fine with not sleeping in the same bed with her and leaving her for months and months on end. Not exactly undying love if you ask me.
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Alexia



Joined: 29 Jan 2004
Posts: 80
Location: Los Angeles, CA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awakener wrote:
Ill be waiting for reply! And when Ill give you the correct answer I m sure you still want have the slightest clue of what I am talking about!

I have problems with what you've said here.
1. You don't SPEAK ancient Hellenic, either.
2. Epigraths are always in all capital letters, not lower and upper case, so if this was a test of just epigrahs, you did not create a very fair assessment.
3. You are not specific about the dialect you are using
4. You give no context for the words, and anyone who has spent any amount of time translating knows that Ancient Greek words have MANY meanings and the context is important.
5. There is no English translation for any of these words because the concepts do not exist in our culture, but for the sake of argument:
a. ***
b. love of a friend
c. boy love

I find it quite rude of you to assume that everyone here is ignorant of what you are talking about, whether we study Ancient Philosophy or not, but since you are new, I will assume that you spoke before you had the chance to really look around the site.

If I wasn't clear before about my understanding of Ancient Greek culture, let me attempt to do so now. Relationships between older men and younger boys was a natural part of Greek society. It was a right of passage, and it was also part of what their culture found ***, senusous so to speak. The young male body was the most desirable thing, not the female body. It was also believed that true love could only exist between men because they were equals. True love could not exist between people who were not equal in intellect. Women were primarily for procreation, and were considered intellectual inferiors of men. There were high class prostitutes know as hetaire, who weren't quite as low as wives, but weren't as well respected as men. Boy love was the not only an important right of passage for the boy, it was an important process for the men as well. In some parts of Greece, there were different names for the men and boys, depending on the stage of the relationship. It was sex. It was love. It was culture. The relationship between Alexander and Hephaestion began this way and continued throughout their lives, which was not the usual case.
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Alexia



Joined: 29 Jan 2004
Posts: 80
Location: Los Angeles, CA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dynamo wrote:


Roxane????????


Jenna Corinth took the words right out of my mouth. Roxane was NOTHING more to Alexander than a hot lay and a politcal marriage. And he certainly wasn't faith, with what two or three more wives after her? Come on. There was definately no love there.
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Lala



Joined: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 324
Location: Thessaloniki, Macedonia, Greece, Europe, Earth

PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awakener wrote:
...Can any body tell me what the English word for Έρωτας is and what it means? Can any body tell me what the English word for Φιλότιμο is and what it means? Also according to the topic I want to ask if anybody knows the English word for Παιδεραστης? ...


ΕΡΩΤΑΣ / Έρωτας = Eros / In Love / Cupid
ΦΙΛΟΤΙΜΟ / Φιλότιμο = Love for fairness / honesty / squareness / truth
ΠΑΙΔΕΡΑΣΤΗΣ / παιδεραστής = paederast = child-lover = child abuser, is the correct meaning.
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Awakener



Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi again…. Ok I really don’t know were to begin from. The language I wrote the words were in modern Hellinik. Alexia you wrote that I don’t speak ancient Hellinik you are wrong. Modern Hellinik originated from Ancient Hellinik and the differences between them are very few. Unfortunately Hellinik is a living organism and by the years many words were paraphrased (if I say lost there original meaning then I would be wrong, the correct word is paraphrased) and as an example I gave the words Έρωτας and Παιδεραστής. I also added the word Φιλοτιμο as an example that in our life there things that you meet every day and you are not able to describe. Not because there not in your culture but because there not in your vocabulary. This is not a test for ancient epigraphs and it s not a test at all. Ancient Hellinik were written in lower and upper case and that is the reason why had a lot of punctuations. The things got worse when the Latin language was created based on Hellinik language and later on the English, Italian, French etc. Many words lost there original meaning, paraphrased and other don’t even exist. I said that I am very good at philosophy general; I didn’t refer to ancient philosophy only. What I am trying to say is that the true meaning of ancient Hellinik is a knowledge that very few people know in this world and you can count them in your fingers. Unfortunately none of them have ever written a book that it was well know in public (for several reasons that I don want to discus right now.). This means that you have to look really hard in order to find the truth. And that is why I was so confident that you wont be able to understand what I am taking about, because I have spend a lot of my time and energy finding the truth.
And not only me but a lot o Hellinik people. Alexander the great lived in world that philosophy was the center of their life and Alexander was a man that studded philosophy from an early age. And Aristotelis one of the greatest philosophers of Hellas was his Teacher. And no one can reach hire levels of philosophy without using Ancient Hellinik any one that deals with real philosophy knows I am true. So in order to understand anything about Alexander you have to do all the above. And not read books that some great historian wrote, the truth is far more beneath and you have to dig real hard to find it. Oh my good I am delirious sorry…..

-Φιλοτιμός no similar word in English and I m not able to give the meaning of this word by using English

- Ερώτας. Also no similar word in English. It comes from the word Ερώτηση (question), by making questions you find answers giving answers to problems you begin to understand a lot of things and eventually through this process your spirit grows. So Ερωτας is the emotion that put us in a process that makes our spirit Grow. No relation with the word love or the phrase in love.

- Παιδεραστής Comes from the word Παιδεία (similar to the word education) and Εραστής (Ερώτας) look above. Finally you finger it out; I find it difficult to explain. Παιδεραστες usually were the teachers and the students were called Εραστές (‘lovers’ as English people would wrongly translate)

It is wrong to say that the words have several meanings. The words were created to describe specific things; the mater is that you can find the same things in several situations. Also you can have love you can have Ερωτα but it is not necessary that you have sexual attraction also.

So we are free to express what we believe but if we want to be accurate we mast try harder. My opinion about Alexander the Great is that we will never know for sure. All I know is that Alexander was the man that every man would dream to be. And never in his life gave the right to be thought anything else! And finally my advice for you Evan my friend is that if you really want to find the truth you should look in more accurate places. That’s all folks I understand that some things that I said may offend you and ones more I apologize but for me it is the truth and I know that nobody likes the truth that is not of his benefit. I hope that is the last you hear from me.
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xXxThalestrisxXx



Joined: 27 Jun 2004
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:12 am    Post subject: Obsession here! Reply with quote

Why is everyone so obsession with homosexuality? I mean seriously, it happens (whether you're all for it or against it) so get over it. It's has been happening for eons so it's nothing new. I am heterosexual, but could give a flying rat's behind what the sexual orientation of anyone is. It's that's person's business for Zeus's sake! So what if Alexander was gay? He was freaking cool! The best (and probably most constructive) conquerer this world has ever seen! Give it a rest! I get plenty of my jollies over seeing really hot *** pictures of him.

Colin Farrell is a freaking god.
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Alexia



Joined: 29 Jan 2004
Posts: 80
Location: Los Angeles, CA

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awakener wrote:
Hi again…. Ok I really don’t know were to begin from. The language I wrote the words were in modern Hellinik. Alexia you wrote that I don’t speak ancient Hellinik you are wrong. Modern Hellinik originated from Ancient Hellinik and the differences between them are very few. Unfortunately Hellinik is a living organism and by the years many words were paraphrased


I've heard people say that before, but you no more speak the Greek of the Hellenistic world than I speak the English of Shakespeare. And Shakespeare is much closer to modern time than the time of Alexander. I mean, I can write "placket" with no problem, but watch what happens when I write the word ****. They mean the same thing.

Awakener wrote:
This is not a test for ancient epigraphs and it s not a test at all. Ancient Hellinik were written in lower and upper case


You certainly presented it as one. And an epigraph, or at least the ones I"ve seen were all upper case. When you get to what is left of parchment writing, you get upper and lower case. Case in Point:
http://faculty.luther.edu/~martinka/art43/daily/first%20days/waxgk.jpg


Awakener wrote:
What I am trying to say is that the true meaning of ancient Hellinik is a knowledge that very few people know in this world and you can count them in your fingers.


So if all those classicist at Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, Yale and the micro-ivies are just wasting their time, then the rest of us pions must REALLY be wasting our time. If there is anything that I have learned from living in a pluralistic society is that one does not have to be from a culture in order to understand it, and furthermore that people who are from that culture are not always the best at understanding their own culture. It's always important to remember that no one has cornered the market on knowledge and that many people can understand one thing in different ways and all be right because knowledge is a social construct. There is no absolute truth. Everything is relative.



Awakener wrote:
So in order to understand anything about Alexander you have to do all the above. And not read books that some great historian wrote, the truth is far more beneath and you have to dig real hard to find it.


This is not a fair accusation either. I could go on about the various sources I've read and my own travels around Greece, but instead I ask you to look around this site and do some READING. You'll find that overall everyone posting here has done extensive reading of sources other than historians. Most of us don't agree, but that doesn't mean we haven't understood what we've read.



Awakener wrote:
It is wrong to say that the words have several meanings. The words were created to describe specific things; the mater is that you can find the same things in several situations.


Again, should I ask for my tuition back for all those years of Greek I took? Words mean different things at different times and in different places. There was not one dialect of Greek, as there were several city-states. In modern times even English isn't the same in every country. A "fag" in the United States is a derrogatory word for some who is homosexual, but in England it is slang for a cigarette. But as far as Greek goes, the example that comes to mind is the word that is translated as "theif" in English. It was a "theif" in Mideval Greek when the Bible was being translated, but when it was written, it actually meant "political insurrector."

Awakender wrote:
Also you can have love you can have ????? but it is not necessary that you have sexual attraction also.


You don't have to study Greek or philosophy to know this is true. Just try having ordinary relationships with ordinary people. It's best understood when it actually happens to you.


Please forgive my spelling. I'm not up to par today. I just spent a rather intense weekend with my dissertation research group, but I didn't want to let this go any longer. I think that your approach is misguided. And, so I will state briefly what I have stated before. I think that Alexander's love for Hephaestion is self-evident in the funeral he gave for his "friend" (ironically a euphemism we still use for gay sexual partners). As I have said before, I love my best friend, but I wouldn't deify her. Alexander's treatment of his "wives" shows a lack of interest in women in general, especially considering how long it took him to marry. Also, keep in mind that when Alexander died there were no **** sons to take up the role as king, a clear indication that he was either shooting blanks or wasn't batting for the team that most testosterone induced males feel he should have been to be a great general. I vote for the later, especially since he did sucessfully impregnante Roxane and other wives when he finally did get around to business. It is true that we will never know, but the truth is that our modern concepts of sexuality could never be applied to a culture so distant from us, especially after the influence of Christianity and the role that Paul played in changing how we see sex.
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