Go to the alexander-the-great.co.uk homepage
alexander-the-great.co.uk
Talk about the Oliver Stone movie "Alexander"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

the tomb of Alexander the Great
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    alexander-the-great.co.uk Forum Index -> Discuss 'Alexander' the man
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Sikander



Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:57 pm    Post subject: The Long Dead Reply with quote

Greetings Joanna,

I know I am in the minority <smile>.. but I stand with those who feel that finding the tomb will only bring conflict and chaos. The old mythologies still reside in the minds and hearts of men; more so with Alexander. Even *without* the body, men and nations fight over possession..

And on the personal side, the idea of what will be done is disturbing... old ways, I suppose, to respect and honour the dead.. Better to let the dead lie, as Te Lawrence lies, undisturbed, at rest in a far, quiet corner and still, after so many decades, visited daily; as kings and queens lie in Westminster Abbey, undisturbed, untouched, uncodified, catalogued and tested, but visited daily.

Regards,
Sikander
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cynisca



Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 605
Location: Living in Yorkshire UK - ê tan ê epi tas

PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings Sikander,
I've said elsewhere on here that if Alexander is found, there will be another war of the Diadochi to claim his body. On the other hand, like many of his admirers I would like to know where he lies so I can go to pay homage.
I am very torn about archaeological research in general, part of me loves to know more about the remains, see reconstructions of the features but the other part hates to see the body undergoing tests. Seeing a knife going into a mummified body affects me the same as seeing a post mortem or operation on film - I look away Embarassed Then these remains are displayed in a museum, often seperated from their grave goods Evil or Very Mad Vergina Aigai is a good example of how remains should be displayed
I may be odd, but when I saw the damage to the face of the mumified remains thought to be Nefertiti, it upset me, as I thought about her spirit looking on and her feelings. The same with Yde Girl, whose lovely features are now so ogre like. So I can understand the emotions of the poem.
Having said that, I would dearly love to see a reconstruction of Alexander's true features and if DNA could be taken without too much damage. it would show the relationship to the remains at Aigai Vergina and also to any possible living relatives or even descendents - as I have this feeling that he did leave at least one living child behind.
Regards
Cynisca
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Sikander



Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings Cynisca,

You said "as I have this feeling that he did leave at least one living child behind. "

I would be interested in hearing which child you feel this would be?

I know there have been *claims*, but to date, I have seen little proof to back up any claims of survivors, so I am interested in hearing your thoughts on this matter..

You said "Having said that, I would dearly love to see a reconstruction of Alexander's true features"

I suspect this would be difficult, even with our current knowledge. I recall, when they were reconstructing the face of "Philip', writing to some of those involved and saying things "did not fit".. Both myself and my friend expressed that we felt the face was being forced to an image that had already been decided upon (this turned out to be an accurate assessment, I believe). Alexander would be the same: he would become what someone had already decided he would be and yes, I agree a new war of the successors would arise.

Ah well, time will tell, eh?

Regards,
Sikander



Regards,
Sikander
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
joanna



Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 1270
Location: Greece/USA/Italy/UK/

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see your point, and I agree with you. A dead body must be left in peace and as you said all this knife stuff going into mummified bodies is horrible. It's not right. I have a picture of Alexander in my mind and that's enough. But, of course, I hope his tomb will be found one day, so I can go to pay homage to Alexandros and kiss him reverently.




Cynisca wrote:
Greetings Sikander,
I've said elsewhere on here that if Alexander is found, there will be another war of the Diadochi to claim his body. On the other hand, like many of his admirers I would like to know where he lies so I can go to pay homage.
I am very torn about archaeological research in general, part of me loves to know more about the remains, see reconstructions of the features but the other part hates to see the body undergoing tests. Seeing a knife going into a mummified body affects me the same as seeing a post mortem or operation on film - I look away Embarassed Then these remains are displayed in a museum, often seperated from their grave goods Evil or Very Mad Vergina Aigai is a good example of how remains should be displayed
I may be odd, but when I saw the damage to the face of the mumified remains thought to be Nefertiti, it upset me, as I thought about her spirit looking on and her feelings. The same with Yde Girl, whose lovely features are now so ogre like. So I can understand the emotions of the poem.
Having said that, I would dearly love to see a reconstruction of Alexander's true features and if DNA could be taken without too much damage. it would show the relationship to the remains at Aigai Vergina and also to any possible living relatives or even descendents - as I have this feeling that he did leave at least one living child behind.
Regards
Cynisca
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
joanna



Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 1270
Location: Greece/USA/Italy/UK/

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the feeling that he left more than one living child behind.

This thought has been a great comfort to me...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
Cynisca



Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 605
Location: Living in Yorkshire UK - ê tan ê epi tas

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sikander wrote:
Greetings Cynisca,

You said "as I have this feeling that he did leave at least one living child behind. "

I would be interested in hearing which child you feel this would be?

I know there have been *claims*, but to date, I have seen little proof to back up any claims of survivors, so I am interested in hearing your thoughts on this matter..


There was of course, Queen Cleophis of Massaga and a younger relative in her teens, either her daughter or grandaughter. Cleophis was supposed to have given birth to a son called Alexander.
I found a post mentioning Malay annals which have him fathering a son on Shahrul-Bariyah, daughter of Raja Kida Hindi.
I felt there was a girl too, maybe born to one of the Heterai, I don't know and I came across some reference to a daughter of Alexander, I think she married into a Persian family.
I reason that virtually all of the contemporary writings about Alexander are missing, (very odd, seeming as though somebody was attempting to wipe out all reference to him). It is entirely possible that Alexander had one or two relationships that were not widely known about and these resulted in children, that Alexander himself may not have been aware of, the same for his Generals.
There is no reference to children born of the relationships between Alexander's Companions and the Persian ladies, yet there must have been some pregnancies.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
joanna



Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 1270
Location: Greece/USA/Italy/UK/

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cynisca wrote:
Sikander wrote:
Greetings Cynisca,

You said "as I have this feeling that he did leave at least one living child behind. "

I would be interested in hearing which child you feel this would be?

I know there have been *claims*, but to date, I have seen little proof to back up any claims of survivors, so I am interested in hearing your thoughts on this matter..


There was of course, Queen Cleophis of Massaga and a younger relative in her teens, either her daughter or grandaughter. Cleophis was supposed to have given birth to a son called Alexander.
I found a post mentioning Malay annals which have him fathering a son on Shahrul-Bariyah, daughter of Raja Kida Hindi.
I felt there was a girl too, maybe born to one of the Heterai, I don't know and I came across some reference to a daughter of Alexander, I think she married into a Persian family.
I reason that virtually all of the contemporary writings about Alexander are missing, (very odd, seeming as though somebody was attempting to wipe out all reference to him). It is entirely possible that Alexander had one or two relationships that were not widely known about and these resulted in children, that Alexander himself may not have been aware of, the same for his Generals.
There is no reference to children born of the relationships between Alexander's Companions and the Persian ladies, yet there must have been some pregnancies.



Cassander Twisted Evil
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
Cynisca



Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 605
Location: Living in Yorkshire UK - ê tan ê epi tas

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

joanna wrote:
Cynisca wrote:
Sikander wrote:
Greetings Cynisca,

You said "as I have this feeling that he did leave at least one living child behind. "

I would be interested in hearing which child you feel this would be?

I know there have been *claims*, but to date, I have seen little proof to back up any claims of survivors, so I am interested in hearing your thoughts on this matter..


There was of course, Queen Cleophis of Massaga and a younger relative in her teens, either her daughter or grandaughter. Cleophis was supposed to have given birth to a son called Alexander.
I found a post mentioning Malay annals which have him fathering a son on Shahrul-Bariyah, daughter of Raja Kida Hindi.
I felt there was a girl too, maybe born to one of the Heterai, I don't know and I came across some reference to a daughter of Alexander, I think she married into a Persian family.
I reason that virtually all of the contemporary writings about Alexander are missing, (very odd, seeming as though somebody was attempting to wipe out all reference to him). It is entirely possible that Alexander had one or two relationships that were not widely known about and these resulted in children, that Alexander himself may not have been aware of, the same for his Generals.
There is no reference to children born of the relationships between Alexander's Companions and the Persian ladies, yet there must have been some pregnancies.



Cassander Twisted Evil


That is entirely possible.... Evil or Very Mad
It reminds me of the Pharaoh - Queen Hatshepsut whose name and features were erased from the monuments of Egypt
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Sikander



Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:12 am    Post subject: Children of Alexander Reply with quote

Greetings,

You said: "There was of course, Queen Cleophis of Massaga and a younger relative in her teens, either her daughter or grandaughter. Cleophis was supposed to have given birth to a son called Alexander.

The issue I have with this statement is that none of the earlier extant writers (Diodorus, Plutarch, Arrian) make mention of any child produced by Alexander. Curtius mentions a child later named Alexander but does not state the child was by Alexander. Only Justin, 500 years after the fact, states Queen Cleophis had a child *by* Alexander. It would strike me as extremely odd that none of the previous writers, who had access to the writings of Alexander's contemporaries, would have noted this child had it been a fact.

"I found a post mentioning Malay annals which have him fathering a son on Shahrul-Bariyah, daughter of Raja Kida Hindi."

I liken this to many of the other Alexander romances that sprang up immediately after and long after the death of Alexander. Recall that even a contemporary, when hearing of the "Amazon Queen" story, stated "And where was I when this happened?".. implying it was a story of fiction. Like any hero, after he is gone, claims to his bloodlines probably developed. I am not outright rejecting the possibility, but I call it unlikely, given that even Heracles, his supposed son, was rejected as a claimant. Alexander would have been exceedingly careful about producing children; his every act up until his royal marriages indicate a man aware of how heirs can be used in political intriques.

"I reason that virtually all of the contemporary writings about Alexander are missing, (very odd, seeming as though somebody was attempting to wipe out all reference to him). "

Between "barbarian" invasions from the east and the growing monotheistic repressions of the early Christian church, wiping out references to a worldly "godhead" or figure worshipped as a god would not be unexpected. While I expext Kassandros would have some hand in trying to replace Alexander, I would look more to the simple effects of time. After all, many kings of merit have ruled over the centuries but war, ravages of time and changes in royal lines have resulted in the majority fading into anonymity.
.
"It is entirely possible that Alexander had one or two relationships that were not widely known about and these resulted in children, that Alexander himself may not have been aware of, the same for his Generals."

True. But it is just as possible he had *no* relations that were potentially child-producing outside of his marriages. We cannot discount that possibility, either, given that his emotional relationships were deepest with males.

"There is no reference to children born of the relationships between Alexander's Companions and the Persian ladies, yet there must have been some pregnancies."

The point here would be the fact that these relationships, and the women involved, never achieved the level of fame that Alexander enjoyed. Outside of a few Persian women mentioned, we know little of most of them. That is an unfortunate aspect of being "second best".. no one is as interested in your life, family or progeny <smile>

Regards,
Sikander
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cynisca



Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 605
Location: Living in Yorkshire UK - ê tan ê epi tas

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aesopia the Perdiccid is also claimed to be a descendant of Alexander by some people, I don't know where their information is coming from.
My feeling is that Alexander did leave at least one descendant, possibly a female that was overlooked or not found by Cassander. Of course I cannot prove this Wink
I would give an example of something though:
Another long time interest has been King Arthur and I tended to agree with the theory of him having Northern origins or being connected with the North.
A couple of years ago whilst researching the Irish side of my ancestry, I read about a distant ancestor from Eire, whose forebears had spent time in Scotland with the Dalriadan royal court. I also found a story that claimed my ancestor was actually the brother of one of those Dalriadan kings, rather than his foster brother. The Dalriadan king in question was father to one Arturius of Dalriada, a candidate for King Arthur.... Shocked yes, I was very surprised Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Cynisca



Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 605
Location: Living in Yorkshire UK - ê tan ê epi tas

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:18 am    Post subject: Re:Andrew Chugg's new book Reply with quote

Andrew Chugg has just posted elsewhere that his new book The Quest for the Tomb of Alexander the Great, is now available via Amazon.
There is also something else that is totally fascinating; A fragment of Hellenistic funerary sculpture portraying an aspis bearing an eight armed starburst motif was discovered in the foundations of St Marks, not far from the interred body. Andrew mentions in his post that he believes this to be from a Macedonian tomb...Shocked
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Adriv



Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 1144
Location: Maryland, USA

PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who ever finds the body of Alexander one day will be a very lucky person. He/she will make history too.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
joanna



Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 1270
Location: Greece/USA/Italy/UK/

PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AmitraNox wrote:
On a mountain he sits
Not of gold, but of sin
Through the blood he can look
See the life that he took
From the council of one
He'll decide what he's done with the innocent

....on his face is a Map of the World...


....and finally... --> He is not in Egypt at all, Alexandria, Memphis or anywhere else...I believe and i know he is still home, in Greece...and even though Greece is smaller, itis harder to find Him there....




Hmm, interesting! Any more info about this thought?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
Cynisca



Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 605
Location: Living in Yorkshire UK - ê tan ê epi tas

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xaire,
joanna wrote:
AmitraNox wrote:
On a mountain he sits
Not of gold, but of sin
Through the blood he can look
See the life that he took
From the council of one
He'll decide what he's done with the innocent

....on his face is a Map of the World...


....and finally... --> He is not in Egypt at all, Alexandria, Memphis or anywhere else...I believe and i know he is still home, in Greece...and even though Greece is smaller, itis harder to find Him there....




Hmm, interesting! Any more info about this thought?

There is the current re-discussions about the panoply at Aigai-Vergina originally belonging to Alexander (which means I am photographed with Athanasios wearing HIS armour Very Happy ) and also the staff which Alexander seems to be depicted holding on a coin. Philip Arrihadeus, not Philip II is supposedly buried in Tomb II, where the armour was found, so probably was given or took Alexander's armour.
If Alexander was moved from Alexandria back to Macedonia/Greece, his grave may not be marked as such, so he could already have been found, ie in the tomb at Pella that no further information seems to have emerged about..
However, I still like Andrew Chugg's viewpoint, although until the DNA testing is agreed on, we have no hope of finding that answer.
Actually, there were some Egyptian mummies in cases, found recently and I had a funny feeling that Alexander was hidden in one of those type of cases.... Rolling Eyes
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
joanna



Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 1270
Location: Greece/USA/Italy/UK/

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cynisca wrote:
Xaire,
joanna wrote:
AmitraNox wrote:
On a mountain he sits
Not of gold, but of sin
Through the blood he can look
See the life that he took
From the council of one
He'll decide what he's done with the innocent

....on his face is a Map of the World...


....and finally... --> He is not in Egypt at all, Alexandria, Memphis or anywhere else...I believe and i know he is still home, in Greece...and even though Greece is smaller, itis harder to find Him there....




Hmm, interesting! Any more info about this thought?

There is the current re-discussions about the panoply at Aigai-Vergina originally belonging to Alexander (which means I am photographed with Athanasios wearing HIS armour Very Happy ) and also the staff which Alexander seems to be depicted holding on a coin. Philip Arrihadeus, not Philip II is supposedly buried in Tomb II, where the armour was found, so probably was given or took Alexander's armour.
If Alexander was moved from Alexandria back to Macedonia/Greece, his grave may not be marked as such, so he could already have been found, ie in the tomb at Pella that no further information seems to have emerged about..
However, I still like Andrew Chugg's viewpoint, although until the DNA testing is agreed on, we have no hope of finding that answer.
Actually, there were some Egyptian mummies in cases, found recently and I had a funny feeling that Alexander was hidden in one of those type of cases.... Rolling Eyes



I've heard about that myself. As time goes by, I incline to the view that Alexander returned to Pella. I don't know why, but I've been thinking about that a lot recently.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    alexander-the-great.co.uk Forum Index -> Discuss 'Alexander' the man All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 5 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum



Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group