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Why is the philosopher Aristotle not a part of this movie?
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Aristophanes



Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sexyphilosopher wrote:
Astibus wrote:
Why the animosity for stone ???
philospher?


That's an easy one.

Stone is an obnoxious anti-American ultra-Leftist who treats history and the truth with utter contempt. He is a demagogue of the worst sort, one who symapthizes with Castro and his regime and attempted to foist on the public a documentary which not merely defends Castro and his regime, but lionizes them.


Sounds like a compliment to me...

Hail Castro Mr. Green
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Kevin
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Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Posts: 630
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someone wishing to remain anonymous has emailed me the following to share with you...

Quote:
As has been noted, Aristotle was Alexander's tutor, and he did have a huge influence on Alexander. However, to put it mildly, they had a major falling-out. First, as he got older, during his travels and his conquests, Alexander apparently concluded that at least some of what Aristotle had taught him about other cultures was untrue. One of the bones of contention was that Aristotle taught that all non-Greeks were barbarians (this was the Greek word for foreigner, but it seems likely he made it quite clear that he meant it much more negatively than that). Historians of his time have indicated that Alexander came to believe otherwise. He did not believe that those of other cultures were, by definition, barbarians; elsewhere in the postings, several folks have cited speeches where Alexander made that point.

Secondly, and figuring more importantly in the rift between tutor and pupil, there was the execution of Aristotle's favorite nephew, Callisthenes. Aristotle had persuaded--pretty much insisted--that his nephew be allowed travel with his former pupil. Alexander agreed and assigned Callisthenes the task of tutoring some of the "Companions in training" (the Companions were Alexnader's elite corps). It seems likely that Callisthenes was quite put off by Alexander's increasing view of "barbarians" (from Callisthenes' perspective) and the extent to which he adopted some of their ways (for example, some Persian dress). He was so put off that he apparently incited some of his new pupils to attempt to assasinate Alexander. The plot was found out, and so was Callisthenes' role in it. By Macedonian law, that was grounds for execution and Callisthenes was indeed put to death.

Again, the man was Aristotle's favorite nephew. So angry was Aristotle over the execution that he vowed to avenge Alexander--and he did, in the form of one of history's greatest smear campaigns. Anybody recall reading ancient history textbooks in school? I don't want to date myself, but my textbooks painted Alexander as a brutal conqueror, along the lines of Hitler, for goodness' sake. (Note: the irony there is that Hitler later claimed that Alexander was a personal idol of his from whom he (Hitler) drew much of his philosophy. All I can say is, boy, did Hitler get it wrong.) I've read that Aristotle's written texts about Alexander were, until relatively recently, the source of most textbook profiles of the man.

So, why no Aristotle in the movie? Well, I'm pretty sure that Stone is aware of both the rift between the 2 men and the smear campaign. Stone is big on conspiracies; in fact, my theory is that Stone decided to do ATG because conspiracies are rampant in Alexander's life. Here's 3 to start with: 1) Alexander may have been assasinated--who did it? 2) To whom did Alexander leave his kingdom?--his mutterings at his death have been interpreted to variously mean "to the strongest" and as the name of one of his most trusted generals, Craterus. And 3) the smear campaign by Aristotle. With regard to 3), Stone may perhaps see himself as the man who will set the story straight. If that is the case, it is no surprise that any reference to or appearance by Aristotle in the movie will be brief at best.
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sexyphilosopher



Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Astibus wrote:
philosopher you a republican???? Twisted Evil


No, I'm a libertarian, but a libertarian who withdrew from the Libertarian Party after the 9/11 attacks because of the LP's ultra-isolationist/peacenik/blame-America-first stand on foreign policy and the war on terror.
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Kiss Me, I'm Irish



Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 11
Location: San Francisco Bay Area USA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice quote Kevin!

I wasn't sure about how Stone would handle Aristotle because of all that. I'm hoping Alexander will simply eliminate his growing list of enemies by faking his death & riding off into the sunset, just cuz I don't want to see Colin Farrell's character die. Crying or Very sad

It would be a great addition to Oliver's "Art of War" style conspiracy theories, tying in nicely with the later Christian tradition of rising again after death, and going back to Socrates forced suicide, it would make for an interesting though unlikely sequel.

I'd love to see a suggestion of Alexander faking his death, adding to the conspiracy talk around Tupac, Elvis, Marilyn Monroe, Hitler, JFK, & Bruce Lee.

My personal opnion is Alexander should have been wise enough to see that at that point in his life, especially after infuential Aristotle's smear campaign, it would have been a neccessary, useful, and somewhat traditional military & political manuever.
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lexisestimeros



Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 3:46 am    Post subject: MAYBE ARISTOTLE DID NOT EVEN KNOW ALEXANDER Reply with quote

You all may be not considering one thing; the fact that Aristotle was Alexander's teacher is more a myth than a demonstrated fact. Nowadays, few philosophers or historicians can be sure about that fact. There are many reasons: in the first place, why is not mentioned Alexander in any of the books that Aristotle wrote (the known books, at least), while he speaks about some other politicians or kings of his time? All the beautiful tale about the relationship of Aristotle and Alexander can be false. Besides, why did Philiph destroy Aristotle's town, if this philospher was "well known" by him at that time, according to the general opinion?
However, i am not an expert on History, I am a student of Philosophy, and all I am saying was taught to me during some classes. I don't have any further information. However, if you know something about this topic (arguments that demonstrate that the relationship between Aristotle and Alexander was real, or arguments against so), please let me know.

In the other hand, I would like to see Aristotle on the movie. For me, he is the greatest philospher and intelectual of all times. Is there and actor capable of acting ARISTOTLE'S role?

That joke about Di Caprio was really funny. I can't imagine that girl acting as the greatest conqueror ever.
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Vasilios



Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 112
Location: San Diego, USA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arhelay: Phillipos and Alexandros were their actual names. In English, Phillip II and Alexander III.
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meshuggahruls



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 120
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aristotle who can say that an old guy like him doesnt hold some attraction (lol). but he is a cool guy i like him yyayyayaayyay
im bored yayayayyayayy
love fromcal
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meshuggahruls



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 120
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thats cool
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kida_greenleaf



Joined: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 6:50 pm    Post subject: here Reply with quote

here's what you were looking for:

Coming Soon got chatting with "Spartan" star Val Kilmer the other day and the man proved extremely forthcoming about his role as Alexander the Great's father King Philip in Oliver Stone's upcoming "Alexander".

SPOILERS AHEAD

In regards to his character, Kilmer says "I was the big, drunken, fat happy king. King Philip. There's a party for his wedding where I kiss four other women, and my wife, Queen Olympias (played by Jolie) isn't even there.

Then on page 5, he rapes her. He hasn't been with her for a while, and they start fighting. I knock over her basket full of snakes, and the snakes are all over the floor. I then pull the sheets back when we're on the bed, and my five-year-old son, young Alexander, is in the bed. I'm so horrified that I leave.

All through the film, he thinks that Olympias is destroying his psyche, and she ends up doing that, which is kind of why he dies

I think Alexander will probably be his [Stone's] best film; it's the weirdest epic that you'll ever see! One thing that is amazing, and it's really well done, is that you go from his childhood, being taught by Aristotle, right through to his death at 37 or 38 years old "



This is from the website comingsoon.net, which i highly reccomend to anyone looking for news on in production movies.


also this interview shows the stone lifted some scenes directly out of renault!
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Vasilios



Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 112
Location: San Diego, USA

PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 5:40 am    Post subject: Re: here Reply with quote

kida_greenleaf wrote:
right through to his death at 37 or 38 years old


it wasn't bad enough Jolie thought Alexander died at 19, oh boy ! Now this, lol.

"But Jolie thinks the Greek conqueror, played by Colin Farrell, died aged 19"
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Countplato



Joined: 21 Mar 2004
Posts: 22
Location: Los Angeles, CA, United States

PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 10:12 pm    Post subject: Flaws in the film Reply with quote

Not only is Aristotle not in the movie, but for Stone to say that Alexander only founded two cities is also rather flawed. After reading Mary Renault's books, I discovered he founded several cities - and we're talking way into the double digits here! Crying or Very sad
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peritas



Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alexander founded 27 cities

aristotle ought to be in the film,alexander said that he owed living to phillip,but good living to aristotle(zein and eu zein)
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Kevin
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Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Posts: 630
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aristotle is in the film - he is played by Christopher Plummer.
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peritas



Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks kevin,thats good to know.A figure way to important(and not just to alexander)to leave out.

am i in the film?(peritas was alexander's dog,a caucasian shepherd by some accounts)
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tintin



Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 24
Location: Winchester, MA, USA

PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vasilios wrote:
Arhelay: Phillipos and Alexandros were their actual names. In English, Phillip II and Alexander III.


...ergo Megalexandros Exclamation
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