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Persians not represented accurately in the movie
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dynamo



Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Posts: 289
Location: GB

PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

your second map was from earlier than the other 2 wasn't it?

Anyway the dark skinned women were seen as exotic and different then and it could easily have been that Roxane's mother was (as you say Rhemy) black.
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Rhemy



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 171
Location: Mustafaar

PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
your second map was from earlier than the other 2 wasn't it?

I dont know.

I asked some people in the Afghana chat room and they said she was white. i dont know where the white repprasantation comes from as i am still waiting for someone to get back to me.

the 'black' (so to speak) theory, was made up to justify the portrayl of Roxanne in this movie but there is nothing that supports it as yet. i was looking for support cause it seems everything is against it.
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dynamo



Joined: 15 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry Rhemy can't see the post. Got some mucked up security on the server and it blanks out part of the page permenantly but only certain URLs.
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smith



Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeap, it is just a movie being marketed as “the greatest legend of them all was true”. It just happened that that a blonde wig fell on the head of the character playing Alexander and an African-American was accidentally selected as an Iranian. We northern Europeans have our own history to be proud of, as do the Sub-Saharan Africans. There is no need to grab someone else's history and put a twist on who was the good guy and who was the bad guy (with good guys looking like us). That approach can just back fire (Remember The Alamo). Persians were the super power of that time period and Alexander had a lot of guts going head to head against them, but he only defeated one single country (empire). Just look at the maps. The movie showing that he was like Marco Polo in armor going from a new frontiers in Africa to fighting exotics animals in India is not accurate. All these place were already part of the Iranian Empire he just had to go around to put down the rebellions. I love reading about history and it agitates me that some movie makers try to sell fiction as history to push their own agenda. The real sad part is that most people will learn about history from movies like this, and will never know the facts.

People of that area including Greeks don't look Northern European, they don't look African, and they certainly don't look like light skin African made from mixture of the two.
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dr.sam



Joined: 29 May 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smith , great post. Alexander defeated one country (Persia) that’s it. It was all Persia.


Rhemy,

I come from a Persian and Kurdish (who are also Iranian people) background. Good research you have started, but I don't think it will lead to justification of the casting. This is the type of research the film-makers should have done which would have lead to not a light African casting but a Mediterranean look or a southern former soviet look. Roxana came from Sogdiana, as you have wonderfully posted northern Balkh area, the area of modern Uzbekistan and Tadjikistan. If anything she might have had a mild east Asian look , like an Uzbek or more likely just a Caucasian look, but the point is she did not look like Ms. Dawson . enjoyed your posts.

If a historical movie is to be made it HAS TO BE TRUE TO HISTORY , one can’t customize it for whatever purpose. In this case to give an “us” vs. “they” feel to the film. It just happens that this time “us” and “they” looked similar. More research should have been conducted to maximize the accuracy of casting and the importance of each character in the context of that historical saga. Anyway I heard the actor for Darius the great is a Turk so there was a sigh of relief in that department, I thought they might have gone after Morgan Freeman (no disrespect to him).
Laughing
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Boss_Scorpius



Joined: 24 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great post dr Sam.....the director of this movie obvisouly hasn't seen a persian in his whole life....
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tani



Joined: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 16
Location: Ottawa, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SMITH, I simply do not understand what are you saying. It apperats to me - though I could be obviously be wrong - that you are arguing that only Northern Eurpeans were, and are, blonde. Not true. In his essay on Alexander, Plutarch claims that Alexander's hair was of a blondish brune colour. Oliver Stone is not twisting any people's history. Off course nobody can really say for sure what a man's or woman's hair colour was like at a distance of more then 2300 years; and a man's account, who wrote 400 years after Alexander's death, cannot be proven to be accurate at 100%. Though Arrian, too, and Curtius and Diodorus and Justin say the same thing of Alexander's hair, we still connot be certain wheather or not he was blondish. So I'm guessing that the colour of Colin Farrell's hair in the movie is simply a writer's and director's vision of what the man looked like. And DR. SAM, you must remember that present day Sogdiana is very different from the then inhabitants of that regions; for, you see, in the middle of all the 2300 years that have passed by, countless hordes of migrating peoples flooded the region. There is nothing in the historical accounts to suggest Roxane's - whose name in Persian meant Little Star - skin colour. I'm sick and tired of hearing that it is an "us versus them" movie. It is not; it's just a bloody movie man. If you do your research - which I'm sure you have done profusely - you'll find that Alexander himself married this woman. That's not the attitude of a man who thinks that it was an "us versus them" kinda world - though he was tought and raised in that way; and the Macedonians ang Greeks considered everything else barbaric: even civilizations which were far superior to their were just barbarians.
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teafromholland



Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Anyway I heard the actor for Darius the great is a Turk so there was a sigh of relief in that department, I thought they might have gone after Morgan Freeman (no disrespect to him).

To the best of my knowledge Darius is played by Raz Degan and he is israel, not Turkish!
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tani



Joined: 13 Jun 2004
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And to add a bit further, the Persian Empire was not in any way one country alone. When Kourosh the Great estabilished the Hakhâmanišiya, or Achaemenid, Empire, in the years immediately preceding 550 BCE, he listed the 23 satrapies (plus 4 added 34 years later by him and his son and successors). They were as follows (the names are in greek or modern equivalents and persian):
1. Parsa/Fars - homeland of the Persians; plus the lowland of Anshan (Khuzistan).
2. Uvja/Elam
3. Babirush/Babylonia: modern middle east
4. Athura/Assyria: eastern Turkey, northern Iraq
5. Arabaya/Northern Arabia
6. Mudraya/Egypy; added by Cambyases I.
7. Tyaiy Drayahya/Northern Turkey: 'the lands beside the (Black) Sea
8. Sparda/Lydia: Southeastern Turkey
9. Yauna/Ionian:the same as above
10. Mada/Media: northeastern Iran; Tarsus mountains.
11. Armina/Armenia
12. Katpatuka/Cappadocia: still turkey: central
13. Parthava/Parthia: eastern Iran
14. Zraka/Drangiana: Seistan, eastern Iran
15. Haraiva/Aria: Herat, Afghanistan
16. Uvarazmish/Kwarazm or Chorasmia: lower Amu Darya: Kazakhstan + Uzbekhstan
17. Bakhtrish/Bactria: north of the Hindu Kush range
18. Suguda/Sogdiana: Samarkand region: Afghanistan
19. Gadara/Gandhara: Peshawar: upper Indus: Pakistan
20. Saka or Saca/The steppe country inhabited by the Scythian tribes on the Syr Darya
21. Thatagush/Sattagydia: Kabul: Afghanistan
22. Harauvatish/Kandahar
23. Maka/The desert coast of Makran and Baluchistan in southern Iran
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
24. Putaya/Lybia: nominal rule only
25. Kushiya/Ethiopia: nomilan rule
26. Hindush/The Sind region of lower Indus, Pakistan: nominal rule
27. Karka/Caria

As you can see, the whole of Persia's domain was mainly foreing and not one country. The provinces were loosely controlled, and in that, they tended to rebel more often then naught. With the exeption of the majority of the western provinces, that were doubiously loyal to the Great King, Alexander's main obstacle was posed by the Fars region of southwestern Iran, which was loyal to Persia's cause. Alexander did had to fight hard but for only half the known world.
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Nikas



Joined: 13 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[/quote]Not true. In his essay on Alexander, Plutarch claims that Alexander's hair was of a blondish brune colour.
Quote:


Please look at the thread about Colin's (Alexander's) hair. It is a fallacy that Alexander was blond.

Though Arrian, too, and Curtius and Diodorus and Justin say the same thing of Alexander's hair, we still connot be certain wheather or not he was blondish.
Quote:


I cannot find the relevant passages that state Alexander was 'blonde'. Please provide the references.

Thanks,
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smith



Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The concept of an empire means a political unit comprising a number of territories or nations and ruled by a single supreme authority. In recent years, the word Empire has become less politically correct and hence has been replaced with the words like Union. As in, The Soviet Union. Can you imagine in 1976 some small country went to war against The Soviet Union, fought against the Soviet armed forces and captured Ukraine, and two years later moved on to capture Belarus, and so on… Eventually taking over the entire empire. Can we claim that they captured 15 countries and united them? Of course they are going to get the highest resistance with Russia itself, that is the heart of the Empire. When wars were fought on horseback they took longer. Darius probably never dreamt the losing part of Anatolia would eventually lead to losing the entire empire. Persians were relatively tolerant of other cultures and did not force their culture and religion on other parts of the empire. They did not used forced assimilation and religion politic as a strategic pillar of their power (that is probably the reason Cyrus is called “The Great”). Based on what I have seen so far the movie goes out of its way to show that Alexander was “The World Conqueror” going against the other guys. This is not true based on historical facts. He fought a single Empire in fact the extent of what he captured was a little smaller than the original Iranian Empire since he never took control of some small northern sections and his Empire did not even made it to the second generation. In those days there was no such thing as technological gap and it was possible for a smaller less affluent country to win a war against bigger wealthier country. He was very brave, and this is the true story of vastly underdog opponent finishing on top. That is more interesting than the fabricated story if the goal really was to create a desirable movie story. Greek/Romans and Iranians were at war on and off for about eleven centuries and each side had many ups and downs. There were no good guys and bad guys involved here, and this was no ethnic east-west war resembling Indiana Jones Captures World meets Zulu Dawn.

The word Roshan (Roxanne) has Sanskrit/Persian and Indo-European roots meaning light and fair hence the slang for Star is referred to as Roashanak because Star is a small source of light. Do you think parents of Roxanne got upset because their kid turned out to have African-American features and decided to give her a name hinting at fair-ness? hope kids at school did not make fun of her name (no disrespect to Ms. Dawson I actually find her very attractive). In my view she is a statement as is Greek and Macedonian looking like they just got off a Viking ship lost in history.

The only actor that maybe anything close in appearance (Darius) probably will show up for less than 5 seconds in the movie to make sure that he is minimized to one of those other little kings that were defeated as the known world was getting conquered. Just like “The Indian King” on the elephant who is also included in the cast.

There is a higher level of responsibility that came with making a “historical” movie. I have not seen the movie yet but if this movie is anything like what I am thinking it is, I will be a little insulted that someone thinks people like me have enough history envy that need to be handed over some else’s history to be influenced. Well, at least Africa gets a share this time. Enjoy Smile
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kida_greenleaf



Joined: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 11:51 pm    Post subject: rosario Reply with quote

remember, rosario dawson isn't really "black" by definition. she is of Puerto Rican, Cuban African, Irish and Native American descent. i think her mixed race background makes her a.) incredibly uniquely beautiful, as we know roxanne was, and b.) not tied down to one race. in other words, i think she works as a "darker" persian, if you will.
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Boss_Scorpius



Joined: 24 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stop making this mistake. Darius at the time of Alexander was Darius 3 barely anything great....So don't mix the two up, Darius the great is not the same as Darius the third.

Funny thing about rosario dawson is that she is EVERYTHING except asian.....funny that the film makers had to put so much effort to find an actress that isn't even remotely asian.....I honesly think there's some message behind choosing her, otherwise there are thousands of actresses that have a fair skin and dark hair around, why choose someone who's not it?
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lock



Joined: 12 Sep 2004
Posts: 65

PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that someone else should have played alexander's first wife.
i would like to correct the first post as well,and that is that the greeks and persians did not conquer the whole civilized world.let's not forget *** and other kingdoms and empires in africa and asia and other places and some were superpowers as well at the time of alexander.
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Rachel25



Joined: 14 Aug 2004
Posts: 68

PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
i would like to correct the first post as well,and that is that the greeks and persians did not conquer the whole civilized world.let's not forget *** and other kingdoms and empires in africa and asia and other places and some were superpowers as well at the time of alexander.


That's probably why I always hear it said that Alexander conquered 90% of the KNOWN civilized world. I don't think a single person living then even imagined that Asia extended so fair north or that Africa the same so far south. The tribes in North and South America don't count seeing as it wasn't for over another 15hundred years before they were discovered and then the people mistook them for Indians.
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