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Tino



Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 292
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It should be interesting to see if Stone uses any of the old languages in the movie for Alexander.

If he uses Slavic, it would seem to be historically incorrect, and would anger many potential fans.
If he uses Ancient Greek, he would anger the current Slavo-Macedonians.

Food for thought...
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Filip VI Makedonski
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, he won't get our anger if he uses the old greek language, but then he should use the old macedonian too*. If he uses the todays macedonian, I would get anger too!

cause there are just a few words left, he can't
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Tino



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anybody still speak this "Old Maecedonian" that you mentioned?
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Sufi



Joined: 07 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 11:28 pm    Post subject: lingua franca Reply with quote

So why wouldn't he use, um, ENGLISH?

My guess he'll have all the Macedonians speaking in affected Brit, like typical colonial thought (that all conquerors, be it Roman or Greek or Chinese, if they speak English, should sound like the Queen). It's the British stage influence, and why not.

Most of the actors are Brit anyway.
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Poppea



Joined: 28 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's known as 'RP' pronounciation and I think you're right, they'll go for that. Or as Russell Crowe once put it after being told he couldn't use a spanish accent for Gladiator "RSC - two pints after lunch" Smile
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dion



Joined: 10 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Tino"]It should be interesting to see if Stone uses any of the old languages in the movie for Alexander.

If he uses Slavic, it would seem to be historically incorrect, and would anger many potential fans.
If he uses Ancient Greek, he would anger the current Slavo-Macedonians.

Food for thought...[/quote]

If he uses Koine, but only for the lines of Helenic characters, than it would be historically correct. Modern (Slavo-Turko-???-) Greeks would not be able to understand a word of it, however. Old "Greek" as such did not exist, whether we like it or not. By the way, Koine was a sort of esperanto, to put in contemporary terms.

If he uses Greek, that would be historically incorrect.

Alexander and his fellow Macedonians from the Macedonian Court did understand Koine, but not his army, whether we like it or not. Except, or course, for the small number of Helene members of his army.

If Stone uses so-called Slavic Macedonian, he MAY be historically incorrect. We simply do not know, whether we like it or not. But if he uses this language, he will definitelly enrage the Slavo-Turko-??? Greeks.

Now, I've used determinations for the modern Greeks similar to the determination you used for the Macedonians, and I think that is only fair. If that sounds derogatory, that you've just been put in our shoes.

Cheers,
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Tino



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Old "Greek" as such did not exist, whether we like it or not.

Are you kidding me?
As per Michael Palmer and Geoffrey Horrocks, respected language experts;
Ancient or "Old" Greek did exist and was Attic-Ionic (the dialect spoken in the Greek city-states of Athens, Miletos and others.)
I quote Michael Palmer:
"Alexander carried the Attic-Ionic form of the language, along with Greek culture more generally, far into the Near East where it eventually became the standard language of commerce and government, existing along side many local languages. Greek was adopted as a second language by the native people of these regions and was ultimately transformed into what has come to be called the Hellenistic Koiné or common Greek."

As we can see, Koiné was a transformation of Attic-Ionic Greek which came about after Alexander conquered the lands and instituted the language.
Quote:
If he uses Koine, but only for the lines of Helenic characters, than it would be historically correct. Modern (Slavo-Turko-???-) Greeks would not be able to understand a word of it.

If Koiné is common Greek (as Mr. Palmer mentioned above) then modern Greeks should understand it, even though some words may be difficult to understand due to the age of the language.
I would also like to note, if you want to get REALLY technical then yours, and the Greek's label should be Greco-Roman-Slavo-Turcic, both for people living in Greece and FYROM.
Considering all of the balkans were conquered at some point and time by Greeks, Romans and Ottomans, and large Slavic migrations which have all left their influence.
So your determinations of modern Greeks is a two way street.
It would seem we are more alike than some would admit!

So no, your remarks were not derogatory in my eyes, and no, I was not "put in my shoes". Valiant effort though.

Good try old chap.
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Tino



Joined: 28 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course the movie is in English, I was commenting if they make any key quotes during the movie in another language.

As for your rant (which is just that) that Hellenes and their language no longer exist is ludicrous to put it mildly.
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dion



Joined: 10 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be fair, I will refer to "Greece" as FTCOG (I did not invent it Confused )

Quote:
If Koiné is common Greek (as Mr. Palmer mentioned above) then modern Greeks should understand it, even though some words may be difficult to understand due to the age of the language.

Should be able to? It is a language with a long history, but the "old versions" of it are untelligible to the people from FTCOG, despite the efforts to archaize it in the last over 150 years.

Quote:
I would also like to note, if you want to get REALLY technical then yours, and the Greek's label should be Greco-Roman-Slavo-Turcic, both for people living in Greece and FYROM.
Considering all of the balkans were conquered at some point and time by Greeks, Romans and Ottomans, and large Slavic migrations which have all left their influence.


I agree that the correct determination for the people from FTCOG is Greco-Roman-Slavo-Turcic-??? but not for the reasons you'd like to mention. The prefix "slavic" is used to emphasize the so-called slvaic origin of Macedonians (that is the people from FYROM, Macedonians in Greece, Albania and elsewhere). Therefore, Greco-Roman-Slavo-Turcic-??? would describe the ethnic origin of the people from FTCOG.

By the way, when did"Greeks" conquer the Balkans? We are not saying again that Alexander was "Greek", are we?

Quote:
... It would seem we are more alike than some would admit!


Now, your statement may be closer to reality. And implies that Macedonians from "FYROM" and others I mentioned above have at least the same right to the Macedonian heritage as the people from FTCOG have to the Helenic heritage.

As far as the Macedonain language is concerned, the best we can say in the current circumstances is that the language has been to a large extent lost, but in no shape or form was Helenic. All efforts to find traces of this language, or unravel its misteries should only be encouraged.

http://vest.com.mk/default.asp?id=56737&idg=3&idb=779&rubrika=Kultura
Analysis of the contents are being finalised. The archaeologists claim that ceramic tablets with a similar content to this copper "book" (alphabet similar to cyrilic and many Macedonian Suns) have been found in FTCOG, but have never seen the light of the day. Of course this may be propaganda, but we need to keep an open mind and scrutinize. Incidently, the above claims coincide with the claims of the venetologists.
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Tino



Joined: 28 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 5:46 pm    Post subject: Huh? Reply with quote

FTCOG? Please explain.
Last I checked the official name was The Hellenic Republic of Greece.
Just like your nation's official name is Former Yugoslavic Republic of Macedonia. (FYROM)

Quote:
By the way, when did"Greeks" conquer the Balkans? We are not saying again that Alexander was "Greek", are we?

Aside from the evidence that you are against that claims Alexander was Hellenic (which we will put aside for now)
We have Byzantine Emeperor Heraclius who was indeed Greek and switched the official language of the empire from Latin to Greek.
As you can see in the map below (pink shade) the Byantine Empire (although was very multicultural) reached as far north as modern day Serbia & Montenegro, hence some proof of Greek influence in balkans, not withstanding Greek artifacts dating Alexander the Great north of the current Greek border.


The link you provided is not in english, and after searching many University and government library web-sites I can't find evidence of any excavations unearthing a confirmed ancient Macedonian language that is not related at all to the Hellenic language, if you could provide me some references so I can read up on this claim it would be appreciated.
Otherwise I would lean towards the conclusion that it may be propaganda as you mentioned.
What is not propaganda though is that ruins with Greek writing were found in today's FYROM at the site of the ancient city of Heraclea, as are coins much older than both Phillip and Alexander with Greek writing on them, this was before the "Hellenic influence" (that some claim) of Alexander the Great.
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dion



Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
FTCOG? Please explain.

Former Turkish Colony of Greece.

Quote:
Last I checked the official name was The Hellenic Republic of Greece.


I only said:
Quote:
To be fair, I will refer to "Greece" as FTCOG


Quote:
We have Byzantine Emperor Heraclius who was indeed Greek and switched the official language of the empire from Latin to Greek.

And this is the evidence in support of your statement that the Balkans was conquered by "Greeks", among others, at some point in time?
Well than, I can say that Macedonians belong in that group, too. According to a Macedonian folk tale, recorded over 200 years ago (that is before the "Greek" state even existed), the great Byzantine Emperor Justinian was Macedonian. According to the tale, he gave the name to the city of Ohrid (which is a name of a so-called slavic origin Question ). Talking about Ohrid, here is what was unearthed last year in the Samuil Fortress:

http://www.***/Nepokor/Arhiv/casisamoil.html
12 cups were found in the citadel of the fortress, evdence of the continuity of the Macedonian existence.

http://www.***.mk/trebenista/HOMEPG-E.htm


A golden postmortem mask as well as a golden glove (including a golden ring) were also discovered in the Samuil fortress couple of months ago, proving the burial customs of Macedonians were completelly different to the ones of Helenes, which is in line with the burial customs exibited in the tombs found near Kutlesh, or Vergina, as it is known nowadays (at least what we have been told about it, anyway).

All of the above have been dated to V BC. These discoveries also prove the theory about the existence of Ohrid false.

Quote:
hence some proof of Greek influence in Balkans, not withstanding Greek artifacts dating Alexander the Great north of the current Greek border…. What is not propaganda though is that ruins with Greek writing were found in today's FYROM at the site of the ancient city of Heraclea, as are coins much older than both Phillip and Alexander with Greek writing on them, this was before the "Hellenic influence" (that some claim) of Alexander the Great.


Greek artefacts in Macedonia dating IV-V century BC? Why not, everyone would welcome such findings in Macedonia, and at least they would be preserved despite the financial difficulties Crying or Very sad . In FTCOG anything other than "Greek" is obliterated (anything...inscriptions on frescoes,...even the grave stones).

As far as Heraclea Lyncestis is concerned, it will probably be beneficial to know that only the ROMAN parts of the city have been and are excavated. The Macedonian city has not been touched yet, but there are plans to do start in the near future, so I gather. And as I already mentioned, everything is preserved and there for everyone to see. Very transparent, like it should be. What can one see in Pela, Kutlesh, Solun or Voden? Even Dr. Eugene Borza points out to the problem of insufficient tranparency in the FTCOG-ian archaeology (as far as Macedonian and Macedonians are concerned).

Cheers,
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Tino



Joined: 28 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Give me a minute so I can stop laughing at the FTCOG invention....

Ok, thanks.

As I mentioned earlier, FYROM was also occupied by the Ottomans, shall we call it FTCYROM? (Former Turkish Colonial and Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia) or maybe the former Bulgarian State?
Come now, I only use your official name of FYROM.
If you wish to use THOG(The Hellenic Republic of Greece) be my guest.

Quote:
According to a Macedonian folk tale, recorded over 200 years ago (that is before the "Greek" state even existed), the great Byzantine Emperor Justinian was Macedonian.

Well, you yourself said they were folk tales but did you forget? Over two hundred years ago there was no "Macedonian" state either which makes your previous claim a moot point.

Heraclius clearly considered himself Greek with records to prove it (not a folk tale), and made the official language of the Byzantine empire Greek, hence the INFLUENCE in the region.

I have started a new post regarding Archaeology, and invite everyone to take part in it, since we have gone off topic yet again... Confused

http://www.alexander-the-great.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=329#329
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Poppea



Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My head hurts!
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dion



Joined: 10 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2003 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well, you yourself said they were folk tales but did you forget? Over two hundred years ago there was no "Macedonian" state either which makes your previous claim a moot point.


You greatly underestimate the power of folklore. A folk lore may be modified as it is passed down through generations, but the message it conveys usually stays unchanged, or only slightly changed. I already mentioned on this forum that the first ever recorded Macedonian folk lore is a tale about Filip (the Macedonain Emperor, as it says). There are tons of tales, songs, legends and other lore about Alexander, Philip and Karan that designate them as "Macedonian Emporors/Tzars/Protectors".

On the second part of your statement, at that time no FTCOG-ian state existed either.

In addition, there was a region called MACEDONIA then (and it has always been there for over 2200 years until the Bucharest Treaty), but not one that was called "Greece". There has never been one, not even in the time of Alexander of Macedon.

"Greece" is an artificial creation in a sense that it did not come about in a natural, evolutionary manner, and that is precisely what is being ascribed to FYROM. A little double-standard-ish, I would say.
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Filip VI Makedonski
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like first, the language is called MACEDONIAN, not slavoskopian! I live in Macedonia and I know very good what kind of language I spoke! You have no idea what and how we speak here! So stop insulting me! I am not slavo macedonian, if you say that again I will call you TURKISH from now on! Clear? Evil or Very Mad
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