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Was really Alexander homosexual?
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Evan



Joined: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 4
Location: Athens Greece

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 2:34 am    Post subject: Was really Alexander homosexual? Reply with quote

I posted this topic because the eagerness of the production to stress the "intimate" rlaion between Alexander and Hephaestion disturbed me... It saddens me to discover that the screenplay team failed or chose not to remember that the word "platonic" is also greek and refers to such an occasion (the relationship between the philosopher Plato and his students). the link between Greeks and homosexuality was invented and prevailed about a thousant years later in middle age western societies, due to their envy of the majesty and wealth of Constantinople and the Byzantine Empire, which was at the peak of its power. Western Europeans called the Byzantines (they already called them Greeks) "queers" because the Byzantines referred to them as "barbarians" with contempt. Sadly this viewpoint has survived over the centuries...
Let me know on your thoughts.
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agrippa



Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 15
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alexander - it is well documented - was in the true sence a homo. A few of his generals looked down upon his male/male relations - Heph @ Bogoas. There is no out of the blue creation of this. Greeks were predominantly heterosexual - but also in a differnt context- as the women were more subserviant and the males bonded stronger than what is seen today. Their were homo armies like the Thebans and the Spartan force could be regarded as semi homo. Alexander seems to be almost flamming in his desire to always be noticed in attire and over the top performances in between battles. I would have been like his older generals and been digusted at his pathetic antics yet he would have made me very wealthy.
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Evan



Joined: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 4
Location: Athens Greece

PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verify your documents! The Greeks called the <edited by Admin - Further use of offending terms will result in an immediate ban> "cynaedi" meaning they who had the shame of dogs! The homosexual intercourses were attached to their stronger male bond by later deliberate "enquiries"! as for the armies of Thebes and Sparta, the equals in Sparta were free to feast themselves over Helot females when they pleased and they were very fond of the sport!
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Cami Te Amo!



Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 174
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina

PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No one know for sure, but I hope he wasn't! Cool
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Tartarus



Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Posts: 3
Location: Thessaloniki (Macedonia) Hellas

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How can you judge as you dont even speak Ancient Hellenic, Alexander's language and your cant even read any ancient epigraph?
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cnm72



Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 24
Location: metropolis

PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

do I sense homophobia on these boards?

there is intimacy of many levels... and be he straight, gay or anything in between this does not make him any less of an accomplished person in history

love is love...
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maryp



Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 89

PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
do I sense homophobia on these boards?

I'm certainly getting those vibes!

Quote:
Alexander was a man of his time so lets not have *** trying to claim the man. men relationships was rife at that time and society it was the norm.

Spartans,Thebans etc it was normal behaivior for Greek people of military tendencies.

Alexander had wives but i doubt he loved women he was a product of power conquest and military life.

Where mens companionship meant trust loyalty and sheer survival in war.


This would make Alexander "***" in modern day terms. Colin Farrell and Oliver Stone have both stated that they believe that since *** behavior was "normal" , there was no need for a special designation (scientific or deragatory) for that kind of sexual behavior.

Quote:
How can you judge as you dont even speak Ancient Hellenic, Alexander's language and your cant even read any ancient epigraph?

I do not like the fact on this board that this "argument" is always spouted when someone posts something that another does not agree with.
Why do so many people on here feel that you have to actually have to be able to read the ancient texts first hand in order to be able to have opinion.

There are historians who have translated the texts. Educated people know that NO translation is going to be 100% accurate..however, if you read enough point of views ..from both sides..you can usually put together a pretty good version of the "truth".

In my opinion there seems to be too many close minded people on this board who are not open to opinions that do not agree with their own.
It has made for a very hostile, angry message board. I wish more people could carry on polite, intelligent discussions where people with opposing opinons would respect each other!

Ok..I'm off my soap box.
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Kevin
Site Admin


Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Posts: 630
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maryp wrote:
..I do not like the fact on this board that this "argument" is always spouted when someone posts something that another does not agree with.
Why do so many people on here feel that you have to actually have to be able to read the ancient texts first hand in order to be able to have opinion.
.........
In my opinion there seems to be too many close minded people on this board who are not open to opinions that do not agree with their own.
It has made for a very hostile, angry message board. I wish more people could carry on polite, intelligent discussions where people with opposing opinons would respect each other!
I think that was rather well said and I couldn't agree more.
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Sufi



Joined: 07 Nov 2003
Posts: 81

PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maryp wrote:
In my opinion there seems to be too many close minded people on this board who are not open to opinions that do not agree with their own.
It has made for a very hostile, angry message board. I wish more people could carry on polite, intelligent discussions where people with opposing opinons would respect each other!


So true. And we wonder why grown ups go to war over oil. Look at all the pettiness going on just on this topic (and other topics which shall remain unnamed here).

What's annoying too is when people don't read previous threads and just throw up the same old arguments and issues time and time again as if it hasn't already been discussed to death anyway. It's not efficient in the least, and just plain boring at the most.
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cnm72



Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 24
Location: metropolis

PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="maryp
In my opinion there seems to be too many close minded people on this board who are not open to opinions that do not agree with their own.
It has made for a very hostile, angry message board. I wish more people could carry on polite, intelligent discussions where people with opposing opinons would respect each other!
[/quote]


well said...
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Alexia



Joined: 29 Jan 2004
Posts: 80
Location: Los Angeles, CA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tartarus wrote:
How can you judge as you dont even speak Ancient Hellenic, Alexander's language and your cant even read any ancient epigraph?


I don't really understand where you mean to go with this, but I can read ancient Greek and can read Ancient Epigraphs. There is no judgement here. It is simply a fact. Sexual relationships between men were prevalent in Ancient Greece. This is clear in History, Literature, and Archaeology. And in case you were wondering, one does not have to be able to read Ancient Greek (speaking doesn't matter as not too many people can speak it in the same way that most English speakers can not speak Middle English) to see the depictions on the vases showing the right of passage of a young man being taught about love by an older man.

On another note, "Platonic" is a misnomer.

I don't understand why it matters to people what other people prefer to do sexually. It does not change who a person is or was in any way. And quite frankly, I respect the relationship that Alexander and Hephaestion had because it was based on love (which is clear by Alexander's response to his lover's death). It is certainly more respectable than what some heterosexuals do in their sex lives.

Alexander was a great man regardless, but yes his relationship with Hephaestion was sexual. It doesn't change anything about his brilliant military strategy or his diplomatic abilities or his amazing life.

I suggest that you simply try not to place judgement on another culture, even if that is the root of your culture. alexander lived over 2,300 years ago.
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Kevin
Site Admin


Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Posts: 630
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alexia wrote:
I don't understand why it matters to people what other people prefer to do sexually. It does not change who a person is or was in any way. And quite frankly, I respect the relationship that Alexander and Hephaestion had because it was based on love (which is clear by Alexander's response to his lover's death). It is certainly more respectable than what some heterosexuals do in their sex lives.

Alexander was a great man regardless, but yes his relationship with Hephaestion was sexual. It doesn't change anything about his brilliant military strategy or his diplomatic abilities or his amazing life.

I suggest that you simply try not to place judgement on another culture, even if that is the root of your culture. alexander lived over 2,300 years ago.
Once again, I think that was rather well said and I couldn't agree more Wink
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cnm72



Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 24
Location: metropolis

PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes, that is what I understand, that he loved both Hephestion & Roxane...
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Alexia



Joined: 29 Jan 2004
Posts: 80
Location: Los Angeles, CA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

magika wrote:
Regarding Alexander's reactions to Hephestion's death, wouldn't Alexander feel tormented by the death of his best life long friend / confidant / "brother"?


I would truly mourn for my best friend, but I wouldn't try to deify her.


magika wrote:
I don't mean to doubt the books or your thories, cause I myself have read that he was *** (not homosexual) but that he was also very much in love with Roxane...


I am very interested in your source on this. Most of the secondary sources believe that Roxane was a political marriage, not a love-match. I've never read any primary sources that say he was "in love" with her, only that "she was the loveliest woman" and that "Alexander fell in love with her at sight." (I don't put much stock in love at first sight as it is often based on sexual desire.) Even after their marriage, they rarely mention Roxane's involvement in his life, an indicator that she wasn't that important or influential. He didn't even set up his own son by her as heir, which could also be an indicator of their relationship. (she did have one of his wives killed) His marriages to other women for the purpose of procreating should throw some doubt on how much he "loved" her, especially so shortly after their marriage. Alexander was definately ***, but I don't believe that sex has anything to do with love or that who you fall in love with has anything to do with their sex.
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Bukefal



Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmmm. does it matter?
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